He knows everything about aerodynamics, science organizations and the diplomatic art. Boris Yeltsin was four times proposed to Yuri Ryzhov to become Prime Minister of Russia and head wounds, but every time he refused, remaining loyal to his beloved — the creation of aircraft and training of young engineers of the aviation industry in the MAI.
There is an opinion that the development of the country could go down a completely different path, if academician Yuri Ryzhov still headed in 1991, the government of the Russian Federation.
Yuri is an outstanding scientist, the largest specialist in the field of creation of rockets of a class "earth–air", former member of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, the first Russian Ambassador in France. In his 86 years, Ryzhov still holds the position of head of the Department of aerodynamics at the Moscow aviation Institute, where he drives a car, is the lead Agency for the protection of scientists accused of treason, an outspoken critic of totalitarianism. His energies are jealous of young scientists.
About as vague as it is Yuri, a time of transition and the Russian science to a new, quite unsteady way, the new reform of the Russian Academy of Sciences, scientists-"spies" we talk in his apartment in Moscow in the street Academician zelinskogo.
"Academy of Sciences of the Russian Federation? What nonsense is this?"
— Yury Alekseevich, in "revolutionary" in 1991 you were the rector of the MAI, a member of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, headed the Committee of the armed forces on science and technology is a pretty decent track record for the post of Prime Minister. Why do you still refused to head the Government of Russia?
Because, frankly, I'm not very well versed in the economy. And understand that, first, in the situation of this economic devastation, which was in the country in those years, I could easily inflate any scammers, and what could it have brought the whole country? Secondly, I could just carry everything, and we will be with you today then not talking (smiles).
And then Yeltsin chose the candidacy of Ivan Silayev...
Yes. Silaeva, a former Minister of aviation industry, Chairman of RSFSR Council of Ministers, I advised him as knew him well. That lasted until the total collapse of the Soviet Union, after which it was replaced by Yegor Gaidar, and the soon — Viktor Chernomyrdin. But each time Boris Yeltsin first proposed to occupy the released vacancy for me. Still every year on 15 November in Moscow gather the members of the Gaidar government, which invited me, and each time, Gennady Burbulis (the closest ally of Yeltsin. — N. In.) under the General happy buzz and jokes says the same words that have become seems to be a tradition: "If in 1991 this man (pointing to me) would accept the post of Prime Prime Minister, we would you were not here".
— But you refused and as President of the RAS! Here, you would be exactly in its place, but for some reason again refused.
When I was asked to head the newly created Academy of Sciences of the RSFSR, I said, "What nonsense is this? That created the Government of the Russian Federation, which meets in the White house — and who needs it when sitting in Moscow, the Soviet Government and everything? Also I don't understand and the role of the Academy of the RSFSR under the current Academy of Sciences of the USSR."
— What were his arguments?
— As I understand it, Yeltsin already wanted to skim from the Central government of the RSFSR had to be with his government, his Academy, etc. and again I offered him instead of the other candidate — Yury Sergeevich Osipov. I once said to Yeltsin: "My good friend, your countryman from Sverdlovsk is now in Moscow, he could lead the Academy." Yeltsin quickly found him. Soon calls me Yuri and says he was offered the position of President of the Academy. Before the coup, he managed to hold elections in the new Academy of the Russian Federation.
— Who was included?
Russian scientists — members of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR entered it automatically. Someone get — for example, Ruslan Khasbulatov, then chose a corresponding member (he was then Chairman of the Supreme Council of the RSFSR). For him, many voted.
— Members of the "big" Academy of the USSR from other republics?
— They were the academics of their national academies.
photo: From personal archive
With Boris Yeltsin and other like-minded people.
— So, Yeltsin was a separatist?
He wanted to lead an independent administrative unit. Then there were a lot of kazalinsky slogans like: "Stop feeding the periphery!", "How long everyone will have subsidized?", etc. of Course it was demagoguery: actually, republics local "Shahi" were only too happy to separate, because they were full and sole rulers.
— Whose side were you during the subsequent coup?
— Of course, on the side of Yeltsin! We were together in the Interregional Deputy group, which included Andrei Sakharov and Gavriil Popov. We thought about the fate of the country. When there was a coup, I returned to Moscow from vacation. In the morning, causing the driver decided to come to Burbulis to the White house to find out what happens, and then — in the MAI. However, in the House of the government had stuck to all three days, it was more serious than I thought.
— What is said Burbulis?
His White house was not, he was in Arkhangelsk. There was also Yeltsin, Silayev and Khasbulatov. I connect with Burbulis, but suddenly the phone he snatched from the hands of Yeltsin and loudly said, "Yuri, we are preparing an appeal against the coup, journalists collect, people, we're moving". I told him: "In the tanks, people. Perhaps you do not drive." "No, we're through!" — is responsible. They just miraculously released the security services on duty near the Archangel. If Kryuchkov (KGB Chairman Vladimir Kryuchkov. — N. In.) was then more determined, they could all be destroyed there, but they came. We came on the scene inside the White house, in front of which people were about two thousand, and the strength began to read the famous proclamation against the coup, signed by President Yeltsin, Chairman of the Supreme Council Khasbulatov and Prime Minister Silaev. When the Chairman of the Council of Ministers read, Yeltsin pushed us standing on the stage, and told the people: "And now run and carry all this people." And then I asked: "There, in the hall, were foreign journalists?" "Why, they say. — Full!" Well, after on the street Yeltsin climbed on a tank and I was standing next to him. Korzhakov, his bodyguard, for some reason, all the time reminded to each of us to the nearest person was a meter and a half, for safety reasons, but no one listened...
— Well, what good was offered Yeltsin? What are you fighting for?
— I supported democracy and were against the Soviet regime.
— What meant for you the word "democracy"? As we understood then — the country was entirely on the import of food, equipment,...
— We had then a complete economic collapse, the food was not. Speculators kept the product and sold it under the counter. And Gaidar this case is legalized, said, is the goods put on the market, and how much you will pay for so much and sell. If this was not done, we would have a civil war.
photo: From personal archive
With Mikhail Gorbachev.
— What, in your opinion, was the mistake of the then government?
— I was criticized then retroactively Gaidar: "You decided that if you free the economy, it will create a proper system of state institutions that are necessary to protect the personal property of the society and the state. But this did not happen". In 90-m to year we were trying to create the concept of national security. I came up with this idea to Gorbachev, and he said, "Now let's develop!" I was appointed Chairman of the Commission of 19 people's deputies... But, alas, we worked for only 40 days, having to declare two points. First: security is not only state-political concept, it has such components as economic, environmental, and informational. And second, the priorities of the rights and freedoms of the individual, and only then — society and the state, if the latter is able to provide the first two.
photo: From personal archive
Yuri Ryzhov in the 90-ies...
— What happened after 40 days?
— We said: "the Commission built its work completed, the security of the nation takes on the President." As I learned later, in the summer of 90, the year Gorbachev came three security men, talked to him, and he began to fall back.
Struggle with spy
From 1992 to 1998, you worked as the Ambassador to France, and on his return became actively engaged in human rights activities. Why?
— Yes, I took it up when started to plant scientists-"spies". We, the defenders of science, was then five: your humble servant, the Nobel laureate academician Vitaly Ginzburg, a good friend and comrade Sergei Kapitsa, Lyudmila Alexeeva and human rights advocate Ernst Cherny. Unfortunately, Ginzburg, and Kapitsa is not alive, but we are continuing the work: write letters in defense of scientists in different organizations and the President. Two resounding name of our subjects were actively exaggerated in the press: it's Krasnoyarsk scientist, former Director of the Thermophysical center of KSTU, the famous Russian expert on space plasma Valentin Danilov, sentenced in November 2004 by the court to 14 years of imprisonment for espionage in favor of China. Fortunately, a full term for him to sit was not necessary: November 24, 2012, 68-year-old scientist was paroled, came to us in Moscow.
Our second client is 51-year-old Muscovite Igor Sutyagin, a former employee of the Institute of USA and canadian studies of RAS, candidate of historical Sciences. In 2004, despite the fact that he had not furnished security clearance, was convicted under article 275 of the criminal code for treason. In 2010, after spending in prison almost 11 years, as a result of the exchange of prisoners between Russia and the United States were freed, and then moved to the UK. (He was exchanged on Anna Chapman. — N. In.)...
— Have you taken part in the fate of the employee, the Institute Vladimir lapagina, who in September of this year the Moscow city court has sentenced to 7 years penal colony?
— It was quite a struggle for him. He, like me, spent his life in aerodynamics, 46 years old, worked in the aerospace sector. On the day when he was taken to jail, the Directorate of the Institute has issued the order: "In connection with retirement for high merits to declare V. Lapygin gratitude..."
— As far as we know, its the same as Danilov, accused of selling secrets to the Chinese. But what they could sell, how?
— I know Daniel as a researcher of the Krasnoyarsk Institute concluded with a state owned Chinese organization, a preliminary agreement. I saw these papers in Chinese, English and Russian languages, where he invited them to make a vacuum chamber to simulate two or three space environment, for example, ultraviolet radiation and electron beam. To understand the question I will say that the space of such phenomena — one thousand, and simulate their full-scale now only two countries on two machines. One is from us (it can simulate everything, including nuclear radiation), the second — the Americans. Danilov received $ 300 in advance... And one of his employees, who were informed, but were not included in the group of performers who "snitched" on him.
— You say that Daniel was acting officially on behalf of the Krasnoyarsk technical University. Isn't that exactly what our engine specialists from Khimki, making and selling in the U.S. our unique space engines?
— Wait, you're looking for logic in all this?
— Of course!
— It is useless! I'll say this: in our country there is nothing that would interest a potential enemy. Except, perhaps, some possible strategic plans. But in the field of technology and science — definitely not.
— Well, you probably not quite right here: the last MAKS (International aviation and space salon in Zhukovsky), contracts were signed for the purchase of our "Superjet".
— It's all nonsense. This project was founded in the 80-ies, but implementation was delayed until our time. Here write, that a contract for a hundred Grand more full length... the Question is: the internal market is here — buy it, some of our airline? There are no such companies.
— Why not buy?
— When I saw it for the first time, asked: "Is that medium-range airliner?" "Yes." "He can sit down to a decent airport?" "Yes." Now, I say that it is impossible to hang the engine under the wing when the lower edge of the input devices is 50 cm from the stripes — any bump and it will fly away! Hits and fly off. Therefore, it is safe only on the good bands, which we have not very many. This is the first. Secondly, the aircraft does not meet the company's guaranteed service — it is better to take in leasing second-hand "Boeing" or "Airbus". All of our leading airline to fly. Third, the "Superjet" behind technologically too long was done... fourth, he has all the components — overseas: from engines to electronics. Once I was in TSAGI, and they showed me the beautiful German equipment to test panels of aircraft "Superjet" fatigue (when the part is subjected to strong vibrations). Look, carbon-fiber panel shake. I was delighted, saying Chernyshov (General Director of TSAGI. — N. In.): "Is that a panel of our, meeting of production?" "No," said, " Holland." And I thought that at least the shape of the device we answer, because the aerodynamics we have in the Union was the best...
In Zhukovsky, signed contracts for a hundred cars "Superjet" with delivery within two to three years (faster will not make them in our production environment). But we must not forget that the ship is of foreign competitors, even if it is American or European — Brazilian and canadian. Their companies produce airplanes dozens, if not hundreds a year, and for them all over the world should turn. I'm not talking about the "Boeing" and "Airbus", which produce a large long-haul aircraft. They "stamp" them for 300 cars (!) a year. And what are the chances after this, our unfortunate "Superjet"?..
I, being Ambassador in France, was struggling to together with the "Airbus" has made a huge liner A-380. The project was designed in the mid 90-ies. We sought to have instructed us to do large panels of the wing. We then had a large press that allows you to stamp them precisely. But I could not, unfortunately, agree, the French were without our help. They made it. I managed to see it in the air before his departure in 1999. Our aviation industry is, alas, died irreversibly — I guarantee you that.
"The answer is simple: don't come back!"
— What way do you suggest out of the current dire situation?
— No! Technology has lagged behind since the beginning of 70-ies, fell sharply when the appropriations for research and development, even in the defense industry.
— What was the reason?
— To you as a Deputy of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR and the question is: why is there a gap?
I came in the USSR armed forces, when all died, before that was the rector of the Moscow aviation Institute and was a member of the USSR Academy of Sciences. But I'll tell you why behind. First, we underestimated the "enemy" of the science of Cybernetics, because very quickly rolled back in microelectronics, in information systems. BESM-6 (Big electronic counting machine. — N. In.) existed in the country since 1950, but only in two instances and was uploaded exclusively by calculations for nuclear scientists. She was a lamp, but when switched to semiconductor circuits, then we already degraded step by step. And this despite the fact that our academician, Nobel prize winner Zhores Alferov was behind the development of semiconductors. "Here, — he says to me at one of the meetings ten years ago, showing gadget "Nokia" is — I". I say, "you Know what your discovery 30 years ago there has not been. I have only one question: why it says "Nokia" instead of "Jaures"?.."
— You hear a continuous pessimism. You my students the same thing you say? But they and we still live and live in Russia...
— The answer is simple. When Mr. Medvedev proposed to our young people, mostly scientists, to return from abroad, I wrote an article titled "don't come back!", all the arguments in it — a reminder of what country they left. The country is on the verge of a terrible collapse. Just so easy to have no cost.
— Easy to say — go away. And if someone can't or won't?
— Then prepare for what happens in Russia at the time of a systemic crisis (Russian time of troubles). Over the last 100 years there were two. The first systemic crisis began to accumulate even under Alexander III, which tightened the nuts until, until there was a crisis in the armed forces, not accumulated discontent of catastrophic loss "of some of Japan", the internal dissatisfaction among the elites and among the common people. And already during the reign of Nicholas II, the tsarist Empire collapsed, and a new state, where I have lived almost my entire life. The second confusion are brewing with the complete collapse of the economy in August 1991...
"Officials made forcible capture of the Academy"
— Back to the present. The reform of the Academy, which began immediately after the election of the new President of the RAS in 2013, shocked scientists. Many did not believe what was happening, protested near the state Duma, seeking cancellation of the bill on the merger of the three academies and one of deprivation of RAS management capabilities of academic institutions. However, nothing happened. Why, do you think?
— It was active, via the network, to spread the call for opposition. Then we'd have more. But the information war was lost. Rallied mainly because ordinary employees. And Academy members signed a protest statement only 70 people from 700. It turns out that only 10% have signed up — great people, not random in the Academy of the natural scientists: mathematicians, physicists, chemists... It's always been an active liberal, democratic force.
— I would not say that Zhores Alferov, who was among the signatories against the reform of the Russian Academy of Sciences — liberal.
— Yes, Alferov does not apply to liberals. But we still spoke with them on the same front against the collapse of the Academy. I said then that not all agree politically, but we are United on that. We both defended the science: it — physics, I — math and mechanics.
Some now accuse the current President of the RAS Vladimir Fortov excessive political correctness in relation to the reformers. I would like to know your opinion on this matter.
— When the FORTS went to the polls, he had two opponents who came with a thin pamphlet with trivial lyrics about the greatness of science. And only Fortov was quite a serious program, where was presented the analysis of the financial, organizational status of the Academy with graphs, tables, and a reform plan of the Academy. Fortov was elected, as you know, easy. And then happened what happened — the destruction of the Academy. I think it was just destroyed at the very moment when it became clear that it hangs over the organization of officials FANO (Federal Agency of scientific organizations. — N. In.).
— Why is it necessary officials? Are that nothing good comes out of such reforms will not work, they hundreds of academics talking about it.
— The Academy has long had a huge material base, which was created in the USSR for support of the military-industrial complex. This building, and testing grounds, and research ships. Imagine the wealth!
— Who was the ideologist of the collapse?
— Do you think the Kremlin called and gave the team? Now most officials focused like dogs, the wind, and their main task: to anticipate what will appeal to power. Guessed right or not in this case — who knows?
I believe that as soon as Fortova hung a clamp in the form of FANO on the neck, he had to slam the door and escape into your brilliant Institute of high temperatures, which he directs.
But the FORTS in one of his interviews said that he just does not care what will remain after him. Well, would instead not radeyuschie for the Academy functionary — he would still be faster destroyed.
— It's hard to judge Fortov. I will say for myself: I live in Okudzhava — to me more important than my honor, conscience, dignity and reputation.
Is good you say, but someone needs to get out of the swamp.
— Have someone in the country of 140 million people...
— Well, probably, FORTS and have one of them?
— Of course, it empowered his position is equivalent to the post of member of the Government of the Russian Federation. But nevertheless — it's done... Institutes under RAS kicked, are combined in a single totally different scientific organizations. The same thing happens in education, with universities. Our MAI already merged with the MOTHER... BUT once our science has been at such a high level that we are successfully sent with the same Vladimir Evgenievich spacecraft to Halley's comet...
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