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Yuri Tavrovsky: Chinese Stalin
Material posted: Publication date: 26-06-2019
Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. Yuriy Vadimovich, recently got Your book, "XI. New era". I would like to start our conversation with the topic of the relationship of the Chinese government to the intellectuals.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. For XI Jinping is typical underline the respect for the people he calls sages. He surrounded himself with advisers in the period when he was "heir to the throne." Being: the permanent under Secretary of the CCP, he headed the Central party school, was its rector. And the first rector of it was still Mao Zedong. This school is similar to our Academy of social Sciences, "forge of cadres" of the highest level.

Among the students of the Academy, XI singled out the most valuable people, the level of the Vice-Governor of the province, General and future Marshal. From them he created the so-called "small groups" (specialized tanks) for various issues: foreign policy strategy, economy, fight against corruption... When XI Jinping came to power in late 2012, he was already ready, dad with all the projects; he emptied them one after the other... the wisest of sages continued to work hard, the first five years of his reign, remaining in the shadows, but after the XIX Congress of the Communist party of China, held in 2017, some of them suddenly became Vice-Premier, members of the Politburo — the backbone of his power. Of the old and the new "small groups" set up a network of analytical "brain trusts", which the Americans called think tanks. They are now in China about two thousand. They are to some extent linked to universities and research centers, as "brainstorming" groups to study specific problems from artificial intelligence to create a regional superclusters around Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou with a population of 150-200 billion.

I recently flew from Beijing international Forum on the silk road, which is quite openly discussed the achievements and problems of this global initiative President XI Jinping. It was noticeable that the Chinese their intellectual resources intend to strengthen at the expense of foreign "wise men". The Forum announced the establishment of a worldwide network of think tanks. The other day at my address received the invitation Izborska the club to enter into a new network. See how alive the Confucian tradition. Confucius said that advisers of the Emperor were supposed to be smart people, and he has positioned himself as a sage, giving advice to those in power.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. Then the sages are not particularly valued, and, as I recall, the only Confucius to his disciple the last tent gave. But his Kingdom soon fell, and every student of Confucius has had not less than twelve wagons — sages quickly rose in price because it realized that without it, everything ends in bloodshed and the fall of the state.


Yuri TAVROVSKY. The Chinese have a different the experience was... During the "cultural revolution" was the massacre of the intellectuals. Mao Zedong all smart, following the example of Emperor Qin Shi Huang, was going to bury alive the tradition of respect for the sages of 20 years was interrupted. But what is now XI Jinping this tradition returns — one of its virtues.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. I wonder how in the process of "cultural revolution" was forged, the Chinese elite?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. In 1949 the Communists entered Beijing Imperial Palace, with a rostrum on the gate of Tiananmen proclaimed people's Republic of China. What to do next, how to govern people, who had no experience of government, decent education? Mao Zedong studied at teachers College, Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping spent several months in Moscow in a special party school — in short, they don't have specialists, so it was a massive importation of Soviet specialists, commanders of military units to the architects of Tiananmen square and even Ministers. Urgently create the party schools, institutes of red professors — the elite Chinese was created by Soviet patterns, and still the party and intellectual life of the country is on him. Respect for science and education post-war Soviet Union was in harmony with Confucian tradition.

However, in twenty years "time of troubles" — the first "great leap forward" (1958-60), and then the "cultural revolution" (1966-76), the Chinese elite had lost the Confucian tradition, after all, Mao and his possessed wife Jiang Qing launched a nationwide campaign against the ancient sage. With the beginning of the policy of "reform and opening" in the late ' 70s, Deng Xiaoping launched a "get rich!" and began the imitation of Western models. The main thing was, and still is — to make "a quick buck". The impressive progress in 40 years of "reform and openness" turned the head of many Chinese at all levels of society, they have neglected the traditional ethical and moral standards not only within China, but also in contacts with the outside world. This is one of the reasons for the difficulties of Beijing in the international arena. The current Chinese elite is very heterogeneous...

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. The daughter of the leader of China attend University, right?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Daughter si Mincza 27 years. She studied at Harvard University but did not finish the course. The Pope became the ruler of China, General Secretary of the CPC Central Committee, Chinese President, Chairman of the Military Council of the CPC Central Committee (commander in chief) is in fact the Son of Heaven, the Emperor. According to party traditions and for security reasons, family members are transferred to a special regime of life. Wife, famous singer Peng Liyuan, had to leave the scene, because not Royal case....

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. She is not only singer, but also a major General...

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, she is a major-General and in his own way a great singer. If we use our analogy, it is something between Zykina and Alla Pugacheva: Zykina, because folk songs were sung, and Pugacheva — by popularity. She started way in the provincial military ensemble and reached the song and dance Ensemble of the PLA, becoming a General before XI Jinping became General Secretary. In the past she was much more famous than him. Senior positions impose serious limitations on life and work, there's nothing you can do...

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. At the same time, XI Jinping is not "major", married to singer, a man who has lived long in the dugout. When I read about it, was shocked by this fact. How it got there, what had to go?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. His father si Junsuina, a close associate of Premier Zhou Enlai, was accused of counterrevolutionary crimes on the eve of the "cultural revolution" and 16 years matarile in prisons and camps, and the boy was expelled from a prestigious school, he wandered through the Beijing streets in search of food ...

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. In fact, he wandered.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. One time — yeah, then I got to a colony for juvenile delinquents, ran from it, and then was sent to exile to the village, where in those days, millions of urban young people received "re-education by the poor and lower-middle peasants". He lived in those years in a cave, slept on a Mat, swarming with insects.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. He, I think, even hoe it worked. In General, the pesticides thrown under the Mat to fleas not eat, and privatization of everything we have in the 1990s — what a huge difference between the elites!

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, si has worked with a hoe, carried the waste into buckets, carrying the heavy bags. You could say, miraculously survived.

He had another serious setback when he could choose the way of ascent to the elite. After his father first had "peracutely" and gave a less serious charge, XI Jinping allowed to join the party and finish the prestigious Beijing Tsinghua University. An old friend of his father "helped", it was made by the Military Council of the CPC Central Committee soldier wearing paper. Handsome young aide-de-camp in a luxurious, carefully fitting the form returned to the circle of the capitals youth, where he attracted the attention of the girls, whose father was Deputy foreign Minister. They were married (in China about the first wife of XI Jinping not to say), and soon father-in-law appointed Ambassador to London. Young wife offers to go together to England, where son-in-law would be provided significant position in the Embassy...

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. Chinese version of "life that worked"?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, life could be a series of successes and pleasures. But he refuses to go to London, he has to get a divorce. Cozy building in Beijing, XI Jinping moved again to the village, where he became the Secretary of a poor County. The post low, he again walks on mountain trails, eating coarse food with the peasants...

Someone can say that this is just cynical speculation sinologists, but I also believe that XI Jinping since that time "picked up" friends of the father — the old Communists. They put a promising young man on the road, in the full sense of the word he began to write a biography the future of a major statesman who went all stages in life. Then he becomes Vice-mayor of the seaside city of Xiamen, which became one of the first "special economic zones", then — Deputy Secretary and Secretary of Fujian province, then another of Zhejiang province, the largest city Shanghai and so on. But the first important step was the rejection of the London and subsequent career "major"-the diplomat. XI Jinping is largely the heir of the Bolshevik traditions and the philosophy of his father and his friends — the founding fathers of the CCP and the PRC, which came "from the caves". No wonder the last time in China proclaimed the slogan "to Remember the initial intentions", visible return to some ideas and methods of Mao Zedong.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. I understand that today in China there is almost a cult of his personality, enshrined even constitutional?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. No, the cult of personality in our understanding there. But XI Jinping is certainly not just another leader, the third leader alongside Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping. To XI Jinping General Secretary there were two who did put terms in office and has gone into history. It is Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. They had a strategy of "low profile"?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, that's Deng Xiaoping left such a Covenant to remain in the shadows, to accumulate strength and bide your time. But XI from the very beginning behaved differently, putting the right long-term goal for China. He put forward a plan "Chinese dream" great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation. The key word here is "nation". That is, XI Jinping is the national leader and the General Secretary of the Communist party; with its 90 million people, which leads the nation with a population of 1 billion 400 million people, and its task — 2049 to make China a great, powerful, prosperous socialist nation.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. To the 100 anniversary of the seizure of power by Communists?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, it is this plan proclaimed at the end of 2012. But we we know that can be anything you want to proclaim, to promise the building of communism during the lifetime of the present generation, the doubling of GDP, etc.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. But still a lot done, they have actually reduced the number of poor...

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, five years between the eighteenth and nineteenth congresses of the party revealed that the plan "Chinese dream" is realized on practice. All this time, until mid-century, divided into five-year plan, are placed and executed performance. Economic development goes well, the credibility of China's growing, fighting corruption. That's why the party decided to lift restrictions in the form of two times in five years for being at the helm of the CPC Central Committee, imposed by Deng Xiaoping, weary life rule of Mao Zedong...

The abolition of these limits gives the head the obvious carte Blanche on the part of the trust from comrades in the party who understand that the leader will not have this trust abused. I came to the conclusion that XI Jinping is not just the leader, namely a leader, because he and his wise counselors are able to nominate a long-term strategy and relying on effective assistants to achieve them, he counted. In China, there are five-year plans, although they are indicative, not prescriptive, as it was in the Soviet Union. Chinese five-year plans provide guidelines, and it is not only the public but also the private sector.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. By the way, when the famous German concern BASF (BASF), which including issues of our gas deals, has invited the international consulting company "McKinsey" (McKinsey&Company) to help the group in question to develop new strategies in the restructuring, the consultants proposed to introduce a single strategy- a five year plan!

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, and that's understandable. XI Jinping in the framework of the General plan for the revival of the Chinese nation over the past five years there was an economic strategy, which was called "new normal". Its meaning lies in the gradual withdrawal of China from dependence on foreign Western markets.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. It is also understandable why.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Of course. There is a refocus on the domestic market, the basis of this process — the achievement of Chinese science and technology and a course for further independence from the "Washington regional Committee" and IMF.

Another strategy is the fight against corruption. If Dan sjaopina was ushered in to shooting, so to say "piece" when XI Jinping, the them abolished. Now in China are shot for corruption, shot for murder, rape and so on. Corruption give in the worst case, death sentences with a two — year delay- in fact, it is a life sentence. Between the last two congresses 1 million 400 thousand officials and cadres of the party caught in a net set for corruption.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. I read in the magazine "China" that the guilty are caught and abroad.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, they are called "naked officials", because the overseas Bank account, children in Western universities, wives and mistresses in new York or London apartment. And in addition to prosecution, courts and other public authorities, created a special Commission for the verification of party discipline, which deals, of course, members of the party. But since in China it is impossible to be someone important without membership in the party, then any delinquent invited for an interview in a specially equipped building, and there he sits for about six months; he was interrogated, released or not released, and collected documents given to the Prosecutor.

There is another very important strategy for China — silk road...

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. This is in continuation of the strategy of withdrawal from the Western dependence. Concerns about the American provocations in the Strait of Malacca.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, that's exactly right — in relation to the Maritime silk road.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. Where still 90% of goods circulating...

Yuri TAVROVSKY. But the ground, the so-called New silk road from the port of Lianyungang on the Yellow sea, passes through China, Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland — further West: in Germany, Holland and so on... until Spain and anywhere else on the Old continent...

In 2017 I drove around the New silk road, breaking it into five sections. And a half years and five trips I mastered it — to the border with Kazakhstan. It is, indeed, a new path message, already there are factories, institutes, logistics centers and warehouses.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. Duty-free warehouses, apparently. With free storage.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. "Dry port" as it's called.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. For the Chinese, due to their focus on Europe, this path is an important infrastructure project, which, of course, will not be blocked.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. You are absolutely right. And still, the silk road is considered by many as the only way of Chinese exports to Europe. But now the containers are returned often back loaded, because China has a middle class of about 400 million people -- They want to live beautifully, to drive Western cars, eating poisoned Chinese products, and more clean meat, milk, grain. China needs and ore, timber, and other resources — in short, it is gradually becoming the leading country of the importer.

At the end of April in Beijing was held the second international forum on the strategy of "One belt and one road", which was attended by Vladimir Putin. The forum showed that the Chinese are looking for new additional routes. For example, via the Pakistani port of Gwadar, which the Chinese want to build roads and Railways through the problem of "partisan" of Balochistan. All this may soon earn.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. India, too, because there is an analog of the silk road — the so-called Afro-Asian corridor, the subject of serious disputes with China.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. There is another parallel and possibly competitive project: Kazakhstan its transportation system connects with the Chinese, the railroad through the Kazakh territory was released to the Caspian sea, then by ferry, and via Azerbaijan and Georgia to Europe.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. It would seem that everything was going well in China, but then trump began to create serious problems. But they seem to go on assignment?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. This problem is not only economic, but also psychological. The Chinese 40 years and enjoyed most favored nation status with the West after connecting to the "anti-hegemony", i.e. the Soviet Union. It all started long ago — with the approval of Deng Xiaoping and his policy of "reform and opening". In December 1978 the third Plenum of the XI convocation of Deng Xiaoping officially approved as the Supreme ruler and after a few days he flew to America. Little Dan in a big Texas cowboy hat all the time promised to fight the hegemony, referring to the Soviet Union.

Americans are all, of course, approved, but expressed some doubt, because of their "mafia" came unexpectedly as if another new member. They made it clear right away: we have a tradition to cement relationships in the "family" blood. Two months later China attacked Vietnam, thereby finally turning to the West, for it showed that a socialist country could be at war with the socialist. That is if China can fight with Vietnam, and the Soviet Union — completely.

Then the West happily opened the bottomless sources of technology and Finance, the markets and the laboratory. This happy China, the company "most favored nation" continued until... the arrival of the trump! And he, as a businessman, pushed to the side of the previous geostrategic considerations and bluntly declared that China "robbing" US $ 300 billion a year — just as Chinese exports exceed imports. Began the sanctions, of persecution leading companies, expulsion of students and scientists... the Chinese didn't expect this.

Chinese sages-American studies, with whom I spoke, their heads bowed, acknowledged that he had made two mistakes. First, they summed up the Chinese leadership, predicting a Clinton victory in the 2016 elections. Second, they Orient the country's leadership for the opportunity to pay off the trump purchased Boeing or liquefied gas into several hundred billion dollars — if only he "shut up."

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. But he did not "shut up"!

Yuri TAVROVSKY. When XI Jinping arrived in Florida to Trump with a hundred-day plan to increase us exports to China, the Chinese thought that everything is OK now, but began in response to sanctions. After a few months, trump has arrived with official visit to Beijing and XI Jinping promised him a new purchase of several hundred billion dollars. Trump in his usual boorish manner clapped "good friend C" on the shoulder, and "Zion" was thought again that everything is fine. But the US President left and immediately imposed new sanctions on steel and so on... little by Little it became clear that these contradictions not trade, and if you speak nicely, existential: there can't be two bears in one den...

The United States began China "pressed in full", and the Chinese have no combat skills against the odds, softened in 40 years. In Russia, Putin has such a skill, it since 2007, it bounces and doesn't give up. "We have it in defence Ministers or members of the Politburo," say some Chinese analysts... In China, not everyone is convinced that XI Jinping will cope with the problem, despite the fact that he is a strategist, a true leader. The Chinese understand that they have a direct clash with the Americans, according to the Chinese expression, "edge against edge", and this confrontation of overseas "partners" is clearly willing to go (and come) too far — and in the trade war, in technological confrontation (the war against Huawei and their breakthrough in 5G). And for them, the very threat of blackmail concerning the nature of their economy. Americans say: you resort to unfair methods, your economy is mixed, consists of public and private, cease to subsidise the inefficient socialist sector.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. You'd think that Americans only honest methods work!

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Well, the Americans consider themselves sinless. Believe that the right to blame the Chinese that they help your state economy with cheap credit; and need to end this.

What does it mean in Chinese terms — to cease to maintain the public sector? It means to stop the power of the Communist party, because she's the host of the public sector. When Americans demand to clean a Chinese state-owned economic sector, they require essentially remove the Communist party; and if this does not happen, it will be a Cold war with the Soviet Union.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. It is symbolic that this year marks 30 years since the events in Tiananmen square, where I know you were in those days.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Sore subject. It was a very scary event, which knows nothing of modern Chinese youth. Because the Chinese youth are in control, cut off from the unnecessary information. Not only on the "incident on Tiananmen square".

Thirty years ago I was in Tiananmen square at the time when began and developed these events. I worked in the Ideological Department of the CPSU Central Committee, prepared the visit of Gorbachev to China, during which he was responsible for information and propaganda aspects. Of course, that I in advance, before the arrival of the Secretary General, arrived in Beijing and saw a lot...

Imagine the world's largest Tiananmen square, which at first 10 thousand, then 100 thousand, then a million. A sea of people, a terrible noise, the lack of sanitation: toilets-that was not provided!

Power is so not in control that when Gorbachev arrived, there was not even the official welcoming ceremony, the entire Protocol went down the drain. At the end of the first day in a specially equipped (to avoid eavesdropping) the premises of our Embassy in a narrow circle held a meeting in which I participated. Mikhail Gorbachev said he was "pitching to move the Chinese way", to focus on the economy, not glasnost and "new thinking", but today he was convinced that "the Chinese way" ends with Tiananmen square, and like he doesn't want on the red square.

We now know that his course in two years struck the heart of the city, and all over our country. For me, as a man who has 50 years of experience in China, it is clear that the coincidence of a crisis of Chinese socialism in 1989 and the Soviet Union in 1991 is no accident. It was the crisis of the autocratic system in which almost all depended on the will of the leader in crisis situations. During the Great Patriotic war we have won due to the leadership of the leader-Stalin. The Chinese people from their terrible civil war only due to the leadership of the leader Mao Zedong managed to come to save, to unite the country.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. From Your book I learned that his Great campaign turned 90 percent-governmental personnel losses.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yes, from 86 thousand soldiers-Communists after the retreat under the blows of komendantova to the base in Northwest China reached 4 thousand! Understand the processes was ruled by a powerful will. Mao Zedong has made terrible mistakes were the cultural revolution, the policy of "great leap forward"... But he kept the power! And when he died in 1976, his wife and her entourage wanted to continue the country is a mess, but the old revolutionaries took power and put Deng Xiaoping. He firmly outlined the path of economic reforms, using the West as a resource. Deng Xiaoping implemented it in full, without the West there would be the "Chinese miracle".

In the period of Tiananmen, Deng Xiaoping some time did not know what to do, but then decided the hard, unpopular, bloody... But hold power and have not allowed China to disintegrate. And Gorbachev was a weak politician, unable to hold the power of the party. I know what kind of people surrounded him and they advised him, but he did not accept the decision, as he was not a leader, but only an interim leader.

The anniversary of the Tiananmen square events — a reason for long deliberation, and thinking the Chinese are the sages still tremble, remembering them. They fear that the Bolshevik matrix in the basis of the authority of their Communist party, suddenly will give the same result as in the USSR. It all depends on the leader, his wisdom and willpower.

In their party school, studying our experience, I was questioned for hours about how the propaganda Department of the CPSU Central Committee worked in the looming crisis. They elicit, write dissertations, books. Zyuganov and other Communists, are invited to learn their words and to analyze whether there are common points between the Communist party and the Chinese Communist party. For them it is the worst. Gorbachev also for them a "negative teacher."

Now, by the way, monuments to Mao Zedong in China is not enough: a new almost no set, old also somehow getting smaller... Although Mao began to reminisce on the background of the undoubted cult of Deng Xiaoping.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. And in what key, remember?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. In the same way we have Stalin...

Go, and the taxi driver pin badge with Mao Zedong. 10 percent of souvenir plates — with XI Jinping, and 90 percent — with Mao. In the Mao Zedong mausoleum in Tiananmen square, the all — hours people are. This is largely a reaction to the fact that Chinese society is still injustice...

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. Social stratification.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Monstrous bundle! Realizing that the brewing discontent, XI Jinping fighting corruption. People becomes easier, when he finds out someone rightly put.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. Easier to live, when they realize that abusing the dignity of the Council there.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Yeah, one of my Chinese friend, a good Russian language, said that in his 50 years, still rides a moped and can't afford a car, although its Institute Director of the Institute goes to two cars — petrol and electric motor.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. As with Confucius, on two tents...

Yuri TAVROVSKY. And, imagine, he says, that he did not know how to live with it, and now he writes to the Director, denunciations, and why it becomes easier, as there is hope that sooner or later the comrades from the Commission for the verification of party discipline will cause him to go to jail. Therefore, the image of XI Jinping confidently becomes comparable with the images of Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping. The first steps are done, returning some policies of the former party life, for example, singing songs at party meetings, study instructions of comrade XI Jinping...

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. It's not cause rejection?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Is, of course, but even anti-Communists (such I also meet) say they support the Communist party because she lead the nation from victory to victory, and to Marx and Lenin, many of them indifferent. It does not matter what color the cat. If red and she still catches mice and brings China forward in the world, then you need to support the Communist party and XI Jinping, but if she stops doing it, you have to think — so they say.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. Maybe it wasn't between communism and capitalism they have had to make a choice at the time? Maybe they always tend to rational society with social justice and entrepreneurship without leveling? And they did not have any special Chinese dream, is peculiar, rather, the Soviet version of socialism, which sought to equip the whole world on new principles? Whether in China generally socialism? Or are they just naked the chosen and selected?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. Then you probably will not agree. The Chinese from the very beginning built their communism as "Soviet drawings" — the patterns of the Comintern and the Bolshevik of our instructors. It is this ideological and institutional baggage, they came to power, other units was not, after all, the West immediately declared a boycott them and introduced all sorts of blockades and sanctions ...

Later, Mao Zedong began to create "Chinese characteristics", it was the beginning of a "big jump" policy. He spoke in that spirit that the Chinese products are better than Russian that the Chinese do not need a decade to develop, since the Chinese are hardworking and talented Russian. If the string up, it can be achieved very quickly. Three years of hard work — 10 thousand years of happiness! So let's now say, all those blast furnaces to build, dig reservoirs, sparrows kill...

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. And melt spoons in metal.

Yuri TAVROVSKY. All pereplavit, Yes. He said that the overload is short-term, be patient, and in three years we'll leave far behind us and the Soviet Union, and England. England is also very worried about him then. You know what all this resulted.

What is now the Chinese system? He called socialism with Chinese characteristics. Socialism, as all the banks, natural monopolies and infrastructure (Railways, aircraft and the like) belong to the state. Is the market the private sector, which provides 80% of jobs and 60% of GDP. But it's still socialism, because over the state, and over the market economy is the Chinese Communist party, which determines where and how to move. The rigidity of the triangle. This triangle — resistant design of two types of economies and single party government. The Communist party can reallocate economic value. For example, at the beginning of its first five-year term, XI Jinping said that it is necessary to help the private sector, now he talks about the shift towards the public sector. There is a transfer of resources here or there: someone needs to reduce by two points the percentage of long-term loans, someone, on the contrary, "throw" and so on.

The economist Chen Yun invented at the time the theory of the caged bird: the bird is a market economy, and the cell — the Communist party, let's get this bird in this cage has fun, flutters... This idea was given to Deng Xiaoping, that is "reform and openness". But all this is going on. There are, for example, the wonderful Jack MA is the head Аlibaba Group... He, among other things, a member of the Communist party, going to meetings, and it will do what you say CC.

The head of the company Huawei is also a member of the Communist party. I was in Shenzhen a couple of months ago, including in their headquarters, where the party line is carried out — definitely. The main strategy of the company remains the contribution to the achievement of Chinese greatness to 2049. That is their national strategy, their dream.

Americans, too, have the American dream. And we also want, of course, that our country was the greatest, the best. Alexander Andreyevich Prokhanov vigorously promotes the idea of Russian dreams. I also believe that we need a Russian dream and long term goal, which would unite the entire nation. Recently was established the Analytical center "Russian dream, Chinese dream" in the framework of the Izborsk club. Will try to combine our national interests, to look for synergies in the way the great rejuvenation of the Chinese and Russian Nations.

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. And pensions in China is related to the tenets of socialism?

Yuri TAVROVSKY. "Care for people" comes not only from the principles of socialism and any noble motives, but also from economic logic. The sages have calculated that if the middle class will number 400, as now, but 800 million people in China will be more consumers than the us and European markets combined. This will move the Chinese economy in the first place, its home market. But you need to get rid of poverty.

Popped up as the Joker from the deck, Donald trump mixed the China card, and I'm not sure that XI Jinping will get there. Coming, apparently, difficult Wonder in recent weeks, the Chinese began to prepare for struggle and hardship, promoting the spirit of sacrifice the soldiers of the Great campaign and the Korean war...

Dmitry PERETOLCHIN. Yuriy Vadimovich, thank you very much for such an interesting discussion!


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